Gabrielle Rufrano [00:00:00]:

A lot of times we just, a lot of companies wanna make money, um, which is great. We all wanna like do that. We wanna have a successful business. But if your culture and your people working in that company are not healthy, if they're not happy going to work every day, if they feel like they cannot be supported by their peers and the organization as a whole, their supervisors, the C-suite, then you're gonna have a lot of issues.

Matt Gjertsen [00:00:24]:

Hello and welcome to the Leadership Launchpad, where we help technical managers improve themselves, their teams, And their organizations. If you are a technical leader, an engineer or technician looking to become a leader, or someone who supports technical leaders, this is the show to get actionable insights from people who have been in the trenches and help improve your own performance and the performance of those around you. Today's show is going to be a fun one, if a little bit different than those we normally have, because today I am bringing in someone who who is almost entirely academic in her background. I met Gabrielle Rufrano while she was interning with a client of mine that is a growth stage energy company. I soon learned that she was getting her PhD in industrial and organizational psychology from Clemson University and has previously interned with NASA. I immediately thought this was too good of a chance to pass up. She has been inside large government organizations, And inside the startup world, all while studying how academics say this is all supposed to be working. Since most people, including myself, never get a formal background in something like organizational psychology, I wanted to hear what she has to say.

Matt Gjertsen [00:01:41]:

What are the gaps in what industry is doing? What are the gaps in what academia is thinking? I think this is gonna be a really fun episode. So, Gabrielle, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Welcome to the Leadership Launchpad.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:01:54]:

Thank you, Matt. I'm excited to be here.

Matt Gjertsen [00:01:57]:

Yeah, I'm, I'm really excited to have you on. And like, like I said, I don't have a formal academic background in a lot of this stuff, though I've been doing talent development, organizational development for many years. So, I would just love to start with, from someone who is in it just like you are, what is industrial and organizational psychology? And then what got you interested in it?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:02:20]:

Yeah, it's a great question. So industrial organizational psychology is actually the psychological study of human behavior, um, in the workplace. And we actually, when we study the, um, human behavior in the workplace, we apply those principles to actual people in the workplace as well as the organization as a whole. So everything that we study is evidence-based in science, and we use those scientific principles and findings to better the workplace and better the people who are running Um, the show at work.

Matt Gjertsen [00:02:48]:

Where does this— before you, before you go into how you got interested in it, I want to go a little bit deeper into like, where does the science come from? That's something that I've always just been interested in actually right now. Like, I'm thinking about this, the academic piece of this, because with Minimum Viable Manager, my book that just came out, I'm working on doing like an assessment around it and thinking through like, how would I do research to prove the principles of the book? Where does this research, how, how can this be scientifically backed as a, as a field?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:03:17]:

There's a lot of statistical rigor that goes into it. You have to be very careful in how you design your methods. Everything is based in theory. So usually like with any psychology, like principle, they're usually there. Like, so like motivation, for example, is a pretty standard psychological principle and we have a set way on how it is theorized and how you can capture it. So thankfully our field has been around, um, it's still younger, but it's been around for maybe, I wanna say like 80 years, um, mostly. And so we have developed a lot of psychological measurements and statistical rigor to back all that evidence. So when you do a study, for example, if you wanna, let's say, study motivation or performance, um, you can measure it based on how behaviors you could, like behaviors you see in the workplace, and then you create, um, like scales and measures.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:04:05]:

They have to go through a whole rigorous process of make sure that they're valid, that the scale is reliable. Essentially saying if it's capturing what it's supposed to be capturing, is it measuring every single time what you're wanting to measure? And you apply that to the construct that you are trying to capture. And so once you're able to statistically capture it and see if there's anything significant going on with those results, then you understand, okay, I have found essentially what I've been trying to answer, the research question I've been trying to answer, and if it's valid. then you can move on, apply it to the workplace. But essentially everything is backed in science, in math. Um, it, there's very, like I said, very specific standards that research and ideas have to go through. Um, and all the principles that we apply, um, have to go through a ton of, of designing and statistical, like I said, analysis before it can actually be applied to the workplace. Because you can't, like, if you wanna say like, oh, I'm, I'm measuring this, uh, you can't just say, well, I can go and measure it just however I wanna measure it.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:05:06]:

No, we, it has to be backed in theoretical evidence. So it's very careful how we do it.

Matt Gjertsen [00:05:11]:

And is this normally like our, cause I'm thinking of researchers that I know, like Dan Pink or Amy Edmondson, are they, are researchers typically, you know, they're like partnering with a company or with an organization and saying, hey, we want to do this. And are these, are these usually, I'm assuming these are normally like observational studies versus experimental studies where you're setting things up.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:05:35]:

So it can be both actually. So usually like your idea comes from observation and then you can do experiments to see what is different. So you'd have like probably a control group who is receiving no experiment and you'd receive, have another group that is receiving the actual experiment. They'd be in another condition. And then you can also have another one who is in a different condition and you want to see those differences. Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen [00:05:57]:

Can you give an example? What are we talking like? Say like, you know, changes in benefits or changes in hours. What would be a condition that you would be thinking about changing?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:06:08]:

A condition that you'd be changing. I'll give an example. I have a background in tattoo research, so seeing how tattoos, um, people who are tattooed in the workplace, if they're stereotyped a certain way.

Matt Gjertsen [00:06:21]:

Interesting.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:06:21]:

So I, yeah. And so I looked at specifically women who are, um, heavily tattooed. And so the conditions that I had was that we had somebody who was not tattooed. Um, so this was again, an experimental vignette, and I had somebody who was tattooed and then somebody who was not tattooed. So we wanted to see the differences between how if somebody was stereotyped one way for, for this job that they were going, that they were pretending to go for versus the tattooed woman. So you then see like the different conditions of—

Matt Gjertsen [00:06:52]:

Interesting.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:06:53]:

how it's affected. And then it also had another person who was more tattooed as well. So someone had like maybe like one, like half sleeve, and then another person had like 2 sleeves.

Matt Gjertsen [00:07:03]:

2 full sleeves.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:07:04]:

Yeah, 2 full sleeves. So that would be another example of like a condition. And then you see, are there differences between the no tattoo, the person with no tattoos, the moderately tattooed, and the heavily tattooed individual? And see like, what is, um, what is going on here exactly? Is one being perceived as more hireable than the other.

Matt Gjertsen [00:07:22]:

Interesting. So how, how'd you get into this? I mean, you're getting your PhD. That's pretty intense.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:07:27]:

Yeah. So it was a kind of an untraditional route, I would say. I left undergrad knowing that I wanted to pursue IO psychology. I did not wanna go clinical. And they usually in undergrad only tell you about the clinical side of psychology or like the neuroscience aspect. Um, and I was like, this is cool and all, but I, this is not my calling, and I took an industrial psychology class and really liked it. And so I was like, okay, this seems like something I'd like to pursue. I applied to master's programs initially and thinking I was not gonna go PhD route.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:07:58]:

I was like, I don't like research. It's also a 5-year degree. And I was like, I don't wanna be in school for 5 more years. I'd rather do a 2-year master's degree program and go start my career. I came to Clemson, started my master's degree and actually non-thesis track, so no research involved. And the, I found I found like my first maybe month or two here, the faculty was extremely nice. Everybody in the program was like wonderful. They were doing amazing work in like research.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:08:24]:

And I have a background in research in undergrad to get like research hour credits to make myself like look more desirable for grad school. And then I realized this is a different kind of research than what I was exposed to in undergrad. People were doing different things I like didn't think about, like doing surveys. They were also doing field studies, like working in the hospitals, working with the military was a big, is a big area that we work with. And working on work teams, which is now my concentration. But yeah, so I thought this is actually really cool. This is a whole other world of research I did not know about. And the faculty, like I said, were so supportive, so amazing.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:09:00]:

And the program is very— everybody, the culture here is not competitive at all. Most of the time PhD programs can be competitive internally. And I was like, well, if this is the time for me to do a PhD, now is the time. Thankfully, um, switched over to the PhD track and I've been here ever since. This is now my final year.

Matt Gjertsen [00:09:20]:

Awesome. Awesome. Well, there's, there's 2 comparisons that I want to draw out today. One is the comparison between kind of like academia versus the real world. But then the one I want to start with is because of the 2 places that you interned where you were at NASA. So, you're in this large organization and just for, since There's a lot of people listening who are in the space world. You were there, you said 2024, is that right?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:09:46]:

Yes.

Matt Gjertsen [00:09:47]:

Yes. So this is pre-Isaacman, pre-all the things that are happening right now. The, you know, the, so, so just to say that, so we can set this in a period of time, but based on your experience in this large organization versus your experience in a really crazy and hectic, fast-changing, you know, startup environment.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:10:07]:

Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen [00:10:08]:

What, based on your background, what are some of the differences that you saw between the organizations and the cultures?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:10:14]:

Yeah. So, just to start out, both cultures were amazing, um, which I thought was very rare. I will say though, NASA's was so different in a way that they're, they all know their mission. Everybody, at least in 2024, they had a mission statement. And my, the way my mentor explained to me, he was like, everybody here is bought into this mission. We have like, we're all reaching like this one big goal. And it's like, NASA's obviously a huge organization. I was like, I, I thought it was so interesting that like everybody, like no matter what position they were in, was bought into this overarching mission of NASA, which is like to be innovative, to be like leading in, um, like new ideas, um, and technology.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:10:55]:

Uh, I think at the time their main goal was the Artemis mission, which obviously has now happened. But I just thought it was so cool that everybody was so bought in that like, even though that like the area, the sector that I was working in was completely different, like it wasn't, um, like, like science. I mean, it was science, but like it wasn't more so like the technical, like we're building rockets and we're actually like training the astronauts like to, to go to the moon. It was still like everybody's like bought in that every single role matters to help get people to this. Like to help with this overarching goal, uh, which I thought was so unique. Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen [00:11:29]:

Yeah. It goes back to that. There's that old story from the Apollo days that I think it's apocryphal. I don't think it actually happened, but the, the story is that Kennedy was walking through one of the NASA centers and he passes some guy pushing a broom. He's like, what are you doing? He goes, I'm helping send people to the moon.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:11:48]:

Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen [00:11:49]:

Yeah.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:11:49]:

That, it's, that's exactly honestly how it felt. Uh, I would not disagree with that. Like it truly was, everybody was very bought into their And everybody, like, and they have like their own goals within their own teams, of course, but the overarching mission, everybody has bought into it. It was honestly really incredible to witness.

Matt Gjertsen [00:12:05]:

Okay. So that was, so that was NASA?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:12:10]:

Yes. And then in the energy sector, it was different. There was, it could be 'cause they are a startup and they are newer, some of this probably will change as they're growing, but there was not a sense of There was a smaller sense of like a shared goal. Like everybody, I think, was more siloed in their teams. So that was, that was new to navigate, whereas everybody's like bought in and the culture is already amazing. Like you could go to anybody and ask like for help and they would be more than willing to help you if it wasn't in their job description or in their like wheelhouse. They would at least put you, like find you somebody who like knew something. So I would say that was cool too, 'cause like you could easily communicate.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:12:48]:

Whereas like at NASA, it's, you know, it's a big wide entities, sometimes you don't really know who to go to in terms of like who you should be communicating with, which department is in charge of what. So it was cool in this sense that like, even though like maybe like overarching there is like lacking some synergy, you could still go to whomever here at the energy sector, in a smaller startup that you could go and communicate with whomever you needed to ask questions. Um, and they were always like I said, more than willing to Like either find out the answer for you or put you in touch with somebody who did know the answer. Yeah. Which I thought was really incredible that sometimes you don't see that some cultures, you know, they're not as willing to be helpful or they're like, I don't know, that's not my job. Mm-hmm. And figure it out. So it was really cool in the sense that like there was a great sense of, of shared camaraderie in that sense that like you could talk to anybody and they will be willing to help you.

Matt Gjertsen [00:13:40]:

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I wonder if there's almost like a give and take there of, You know, when there is a really clear sense of mission and your place in that mission, maybe you get more comfortable or more settled in that place versus when there's less clear of a mission, but everybody just knows we got to go somewhere.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:13:58]:

Exactly.

Matt Gjertsen [00:13:58]:

Maybe more of a sense of, okay, I'll just do whatever.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:14:01]:

I think so. I think the saying is like, we're, we're building the plane as we're also driving it. So sometimes I think it was like that, like we're in it, we're in it together.

Matt Gjertsen [00:14:10]:

Yeah. Yeah, that, that makes sense. What about kind of the, the work that you actually did? 'Cause I know, I'm sure it was very different, but earlier you said yes. What was some of the work you were doing at NASA?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:14:21]:

At NASA? Yeah, so I was an organizational development intern, so getting to essentially, um, develop like the NASA employees. So I was working part of the con— what they call the consulting services branch. Um, it was just me and 2 mentors, very small team, and they were the, basically the internal consultants. For the branch of NASA that I was working at. And they were in charge of, if you wanted, let's say the, the jet propulsion team wanted a workshop on, on improving their communication with each other.

Matt Gjertsen [00:14:58]:

Sure.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:14:58]:

Then it was our job to go in and look at, okay, well, is this actually what's going on? Do you need to improve your communication or is it that you don't know who is in charge of certain tasks? Like, who is the leader here for your projects? So conducting a needs analysis on what is actually going on, getting at the root of the, of the problem, and then designing a workshop and understanding which workshops would work best. Did they need actually like a 2-day retreat outside of NASA? Did they need to go off, offsite and work together on something? Or is it just like, here's a quick, like, 1-day workshop where you can work on your, um, Communication skills or understanding who's in charge of, uh, what tasks. And we built that out. And so that was a large part of my role there.

Matt Gjertsen [00:15:44]:

One of the challenges, now we're talking a little bit more my language or what I'm used to, this idea of, of organizational development. You know, one of the challenges I think is always having the organization understand what the needs are and being willing to like go through that needs analysis. And yeah, sometimes it's a workshop. Sometimes it's a job aid. Sometimes it's a changing of incentives and changing of pay structures or something like that. What would— this is probably going to be a very broad generalization, almost certainly, but just at a high level, did you get any kind of sense of the different, almost like organizational maturity levels and willingness to have those discussions at the 2 places you were at?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:16:35]:

Yes, very much so. But in the energy sector, it was not, at least in the company that I was at, it was not built out yet.

Matt Gjertsen [00:16:42]:

Yeah.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:16:42]:

I think their goal is eventually to have something like that, but at NASA it was already like, everybody knew, like, if we have a problem, we're going to the consulting services branch to fix it.

Matt Gjertsen [00:16:52]:

Nice.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:16:53]:

Um, which was awesome cuz there was so many requests all the time and they'd have to be, you know, carefully scheduled out. But there was a huge amount of like trust And understanding that like, this here is to help us become better teammates, to become a better, uh, sector in this organization at NASA. It was, it was honestly really cool that everybody understood that like, this is a tool and like, we are, we at the Consulting Services Branch, we're here to help you become better versions of yourselves. And that also, again, bought into like their mission of like, we're helping you become better and this will help eventually lead down to like helping with the overall mission of NASA. Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen [00:17:31]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's great to hear that that was such a part of the culture. 'Cause it really is. I always talk about this stuff, like all, there's a lot of functions that are like this, but definitely with all like people and HR-related functions, I always use the metaphor of a foundation of a building because, and I think it's such a perfect metaphor because, you know, when something's wrong with your foundation, Somebody's going to come in, they're going to make a big mess. They're going to cost you a whole bunch of money. And at the end of the day, the best case is things basically look the same. They're just, you know, it's more stable, but day to day, it looks the same.

Matt Gjertsen [00:18:13]:

And I think that's so often one of the challenges that, that we run into and in kind of our line of work is, you know, people, people want differences. They want big things. And it's just like, yeah, but like, Like, just if people are getting along and not fighting, or if people are communicating and not siloing, that's what you, that's what you want. And it takes a lot of energy and it takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of change. But it's, it's, yeah, it's, I, that's what I always come back to.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:18:40]:

Yeah, no, that's a, that's a great metaphor because sometimes people think, oh, we need to do this, this big extreme change. It's like, well, are you guys communicating with each other? Are you getting along? Let's start there because then that's how we make the most impactful change, honestly, is starting like with the actual root issue instead of this big, big change that oftentimes leads to maybe more resentment down the road or more issues with their teammates.

Matt Gjertsen [00:19:04]:

Just a quick interjection. I wanted to remind you that I run a company called Built where we train the next generation of hard tech leaders how to build teams capable of solving the world's hardest problems. If you are an aspiring technical leader, an existing leader, or responsible for training leaders in your organization, please check out builtleaders.com to see if we can support you and your team. Shifting gears now, thinking about your time in academia versus your time in industry. What are some of the, I guess, how do I want to phrase this? Let's, let's, let's start with what is one thing that you know of from research and from your time in getting your PhD That, you know, what's like one concept or one thing you know to be true that you wish industry knew more about?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:19:54]:

I think I wish they knew that their cultures probably are the most important thing that you can have in an organization, a good, healthy culture. A lot of times we just, a lot of companies want to make money, um, which is great. We all want to like do that. We want to have a successful business. But if your culture and your people working in that company are not healthy, if they do not feel as if they should be, like, be so happy, not happy, but like if they should be, yeah, pretty much actually, if they're not happy going to work every day, if they feel like they cannot be supported by their peers and the organization as a whole, their supervisors, the C-suite, then you're gonna have a lot of issues. You're gonna have turnover. You're gonna have people who don't wanna come to work. They probably aren't performing on the lower side.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:20:44]:

And that has a cascading effect, honestly. If you don't have people who are healthy, if you have people who are burned out, they don't like what they're doing, there's so many arguments happening all the time, it's a miserable place to work at, that's going to affect your bottom line at the end of the day. Everything you invest in the company is honestly, in my opinion, from an IO perspective, is You're investing in the people because the people are the ones who are actually be putting your output in your capital at the end of the day. So I would say, I would wish that they know that culture, having a healthy culture at work and, you know, investing in people, the resources that keeps them healthy, like work-life balance, things like that, investing in good communication, making sure people want to come to work, that has a tremendous, tremendous impact on organizations, honestly. If people want to work, Then like they wanna show up to work. They, you have higher retention, less turnover, uh, more upward movement in the company too. You want people to be, you know, having like better, like promotions at the job as well. So I'd say that honestly is my biggest thing that I've learned that I wish companies would know, like healthy, healthy, healthy people and organizations is, is overall the best solution, I think.

Matt Gjertsen [00:21:59]:

Yeah, it's, it's interesting that that gap exists and, but it is, it is a persistent one for sure. So then let's flip that. What is one thing that you wish academia knew more about? Like, what are, what's missing in your PhD program that when you go to a company and you're in there, you're just like, oh wait, I like, why aren't we learning about this? Or why, why, what, what's the, what, what are the gaps in that direction?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:22:25]:

I would say the thing, everything that we're providing is usually, like I said, uh, evidence-based tools for organizations. these tools are often not used in organizations. So I, I would say I, my biggest thing is I wish that we could have more practical guides on how to implement our research. Like all the stuff that we have is fantastic and it's like, this should be used in the workplace, but oftentimes we don't have enough. Like I said, academics are in, in the academic lane. So sometimes we don't really have enough partnerships with like, with people who are like, okay, this research and these The things that you found in this research is awesome, but I don't think it could actually be practically applied to the workplace either because we have like time constraints. Again, like a lot of times you're—

Matt Gjertsen [00:23:09]:

Yeah.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:23:09]:

What I learned, uh, in the energy sector was like, things are moving so fast-paced. Like one week you're doing one thing and another week it's completely different. It's so fast-paced. So sometimes the things that you wanna do, they take time. Like the, the evidence that we are like finding, like best practices, like to implement in the workplace, they take time. And a lot of times people and companies just don't have time for that. They're like, I can only focus on my deadlines. I have to get this done so we can have our shareholders see what we're doing.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:23:37]:

I don't have time to invest in this or to practically do it. So I would say those things are the things that we struggle with. We would love to implement everything that we find in academia, but it's practically challenging due to time constraints. A lot of times resource Like I said, investment too. Like there's maybe things that you want to, like, maybe you wanna have like a, start a leadership program, um, but that takes time and money. That's sometimes people's reality. That's not their job description. They have to take on another role.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:24:05]:

You wanna build out a leadership program, great, but you also have to continue doing your, your job. Um, so sometimes I would say those are like the most challenging things and we, we run into issues with it all the time of like, we want to do this, but we, we don't know how to practically guide folks in industry. And also it, sadly, it takes a lot of time and effort to implement this, especially if you're already like working retroactively, you don't have this in the first place.

Matt Gjertsen [00:24:31]:

Yeah, it's, it is such an important point. Even, I mean, time is a big one, but one, as you were talking, the thing that came to mind for me is there was a company I was talking to or working with a few weeks ago. And they were, the executive team was talking about how They felt they wanted to improve the pace at which they offboarded people. You know, when they identified people that weren't a good fit, once they made sure like they were clear of the expectations, they wanted to have a process of how to make, how to try to bring them up to speed. But once everybody realized like, this isn't the right fit, let's not take 6 months to find them a new role. And as I was listening to this, I was thinking about The book from, uh, about Netflix, No Rules Rules, and the famous kind of thing, I forget, it's like famous thing about Netflix. One of the things is that they say, it's like, we expect excellent work here. Good work earns you a generous severance package.

Matt Gjertsen [00:25:28]:

It's like, if you, so if you do good work, good job, we don't want you here. Like, we're going to offboard you. And in the book, they talk about the way they did that because nobody likes to fire anybody.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:25:38]:

Mm-hmm.

Matt Gjertsen [00:25:39]:

the way they made it easier for everybody, including managers, to move the process along is they baked it into like their, their P&L of how they, how they finance or how they, how they thought about hiring people and the amount of money that they needed. They baked in a 3-month severance for everybody.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:25:56]:

Wow.

Matt Gjertsen [00:25:56]:

You know, you come in, you work for a little bit, it's not working out. And then the manager feels a lot calmer about terminating somebody When they know they're going to be taken care of for the next 3 months.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:26:08]:

Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen [00:26:09]:

And, um, so I, I bring this up. The reason why it came to mind is because like, not everybody, every company can afford to do that. No, maybe, maybe Netflix can, but not every company can afford to do that.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:26:20]:

Yeah, sure.

Matt Gjertsen [00:26:21]:

That would be a fantastic best practice to make it so much easier to, to move talent along. But it comes down to time and money at the, at the, at the end of the day.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:26:32]:

Yeah. Time and money.

Matt Gjertsen [00:26:34]:

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So, what do you think now after your— so, you've been these two— are you in your last year of your PhD?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:26:41]:

I am, yes.

Matt Gjertsen [00:26:42]:

Excellent.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:26:42]:

Thankfully.

Matt Gjertsen [00:26:43]:

What— so, coming out of these experiences now, what's like the number one thing that you're trying— I mean, I'm sure, you know, you have your academic course load, and so, it's like some of it's structured there, but is there anything in particular that you came back from these experiences in industry of like, I want to learn more about this before I finish my PhD?

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:27:02]:

I think I wanna learn more about how to, when you're in the room where it happens, like, and not to quote Hamilton, but when you're in the room where it happens, how to convince, I wanna learn more how to convince, you know, whoever's in charge, leadership, executives, like, that this is worth investing in, that, um, Yeah. The principles and like the guidance that, you know, folks like you and me can provide is like, is worth investing in. Like it, it takes, like I said, time and money, but at the end of the day, it's going to be so, so beneficial to everybody involved, not just the employees, but to, to what matters to, uh, C-suite and executives as a whole. At the end of the day, their bottom line. So I'd say like more so trying to under— like figure out how to convince people that say like, this is worth, this is worth your time and money. This is worth doing. Yeah, that's like my, and a lot of times we have, um, alumni who come back and speak to us at our program and they said that's also the biggest thing that they had to learn was. you know, trying to show people like, and through like conversations as well as like evidence, you have to put in the, the effort to show them like, this is gonna be worth your time and money.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:28:07]:

Um, but yeah, that's like the biggest learning curve that I've, that I've heard and that I've also seen. Um, and yeah, excited to learn how to navigate that.

Matt Gjertsen [00:28:14]:

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's definitely what I experienced when I first left the military and, you know, in, in the military, kind of like probably like at NASA or large organizations, it's like if the role is there, it's like, resourced and seen as important and like your job, you just kind of do your job and you don't have to spend so much time proving out the worth of your job. But when I look back on my time at SpaceX, when I first started there and first started learning or leading the learning team, I just spent way too much time talking about the wrong things, way too much time trying to convince, like I spent all my time trying to convince my boss the importance of learning instead of just solving my boss's problems with learning, right? Like, it's like in the training world, we often say, you know, everybody's talking about, we need to get a seat at the table. We need to get the company to care about learning. It's like, no, you don't get the company to care about learning. You get learning to care about the company.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:29:14]:

Yes.

Matt Gjertsen [00:29:15]:

Right. You have to reverse it and figure out what their problem, what are their problems That I can solve.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:29:21]:

Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen [00:29:22]:

Because that's all they care about.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:29:24]:

Yeah, that, that is true. Yeah, that's something I also like realized too, um, with my last internship this summer was that basically that, like, how do I also get them to care, but also like we need to solve what their problems are, what they care about. So, and that's where the internal and external consulting comes in, honestly, is probably just figuring that out. Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen [00:29:43]:

Yeah. Awesome. Well, Gabrielle, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for chatting, hearing about a little bit more about your background and your experiences. I think it's always interesting to get that take from like a different perspective, especially as a lot of the people who are listening, you know, they've come up in the technical fields, they've come up in the engineering fields, and they've not had the kind of background that you have. And so getting to know you a little bit better gives them a little bit better understanding. So when you finish your PhD and go work with some of them, there's a little bit more of a connection there because they've—

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:30:17]:

Yes.

Matt Gjertsen [00:30:17]:

they know where you, where you're coming from. At least that's, that's kind of the hope of the conversation.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:30:20]:

Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen [00:30:21]:

So thank you so much.

Gabrielle Rufrano [00:30:23]:

Yes, thank you for having me. I loved having this conversation.