Rich Phipps [00:00:00]:

You know, what, from a leadership perspective, like, what is influence? And to me, like, that is your currency as a leader. That is the power that you have as a leader is influence. Without influence, you cannot lead.

Matt Gjertsen [00:00:17]:

Like it or not, we work in a world that is often divided, and we call that division by a lot of different names. Sometimes it might be blue collar and white collar. In the military, it's officer versus enlisted. engineer versus technician. In the more formal HR world, it can be exempt versus non-exempt, otherwise known as, as salary versus hourly. Now, I generally think that people are people and leading one group of people is very similar to leading another group of people. But we do have to acknowledge that those groups have often have different experiences, different expectations, or different incentives. And we have to realize that when it comes to leading those people.

Matt [00:00:54]:

Our guest today is Rich Phipps, the former manager of technicians and development tests at SpaceX's McGregor test facility. Like me, Rich started his career in the military, serving as a submariner in the U.S. Navy. He left the Navy to join SpaceX, where he started as a data and control systems technician and moved his way up through leadership in what I have to believe is the most dynamic work environment in the world. I'm really excited to talk with Rich today about his experiences in that environment and what successful leadership looks like from his perspective. So Rich, welcome to the Leadership Launchpad. I'm so excited to have you here today.

Rich Phipps [00:01:36]:

Hey Matt, thanks man. And I definitely appreciate that introduction and I'm super stoked to talk with you today.

Matt [00:01:42]:

Yeah, no, I'm really excited because as we were reflecting a little bit before this, I think the reason why I had that intro is because I just thought back to it and realized like the vast majority of people that I have had on do come from more of the engineering to leadership track. And I think you might be the first person that came from the technician to leadership track. And so, like I said, I think a lot of it's, it's, you know, a lot of things are the same, but I'm sure there's some things that are different. And so I'm really excited to chat with you. So I'd love to start with you just maybe taking a minute to flesh a little bit more about what, what has your career been like? What were your experiences at McGregor for anybody who, who maybe hasn't gotten the experience of standing a few hundred feet away from a Merlin engine test firing?

Rich Phipps [00:02:26]:

Yeah, absolutely, Matt. Like you said, it is, it's crazy dynamic. You know, as the development and test, or on the development test team specifically, you know, the things that we are responsible for is exactly in the title. Like, with SpaceX kind of pushing the boundaries of what's possible and doing things that literally no one's ever done before, like all of those technologies, whether they be at the vehicle scale or even all the way down to the component scale, You know, it was, it was our job to figure out, you know, if those ideas were gonna work, you know, if they were gonna break, how were they gonna break? Uh, and, and obviously the goal was to figure out, you know, how are they gonna break before we fly 'em? And that's not always the case as we've seen, you know, uh, in the last, uh, 15 or so years. Um, and when things don't go as planned, you know, that comes right back to this team. Like, hey, that didn't behave like we thought it was gonna behave. Uh, so let's go figure out, you know, what was different? What didn't we think of?

Matt [00:03:21]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:03:22]:

And yeah, so super dynamic, always go, go, go for sure.

Matt [00:03:28]:

Yeah. Yeah. It's one thing that always impressed me just whenever I was there, you hear about a mishap and I think this is true in any organization, just like the faster you can go from mishap happening to hardware testing what happened, like the faster you can do that, the better. And I was always impressed by how like it, sometimes it seemed like it was same day. It was just incredible.

Rich Phipps [00:03:49]:

Sometimes it was. Absolutely. Yeah.

Matt [00:03:52]:

Let's rewind a little bit. You spent a bunch of time in the Navy and you went up the enlisted ranks to become a senior enlisted leader. What was your first experience leading people and what were some of the things that kind of surprised you about that and what were some of the challenges that you faced?

Rich Phipps [00:04:10]:

Yeah, kind of thinking back, You know, I joined the Navy back, way back in 2003. You know, I went up to, like you said, to the enlisted ranks and, you know, moving up in the Navy, at least on the enlisted side, before you get to formal leadership, which I think, you know, to kind of put it a parallel to civilian terms, like I think E-7, at least in the Navy, and it's different, you know, depending on what branch you were in, the Air Force, so it may be different, you know, where you were. on the enlisted side, like E-7, E-8, and E-9 in the Navy are your like formal people leaders. Like I would say like that's the dividing line between like, you know, in the civilian world, like a lead technician would be like an E-6.

Matt [00:04:53]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:04:53]:

A first class petty officer in the Navy, whereas an E-7 and above is like your supervisor, your manager, senior major, whatever, you know, going up. Um, and you know, I, I made E-7 chief relatively early in my career. I think I was at just over 6 years in. Um, yeah, so it's not uncommon in, uh, the nuclear program, which I served in, in the Navy, for, uh, folks to be promoted into formal leadership very early in their careers. Um, so during my time as junior enlisted, you know, you get real good at your job. Um, you're making friends, you're, you know, creating all these relationships and stuff, but you're not really like super thinking about you know, the very next step for me is like this crazy jump to formal leadership. Maybe I should start thinking about those things. And there, there are programs that are available in the Navy to kind of help jumpstart that.

Matt [00:05:46]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:05:46]:

But if I'm being honest, and of course I'm speaking to my own experience here, like that wasn't a super priority, at least when I was in. And, and, you know, talking to some of my, my peers that have stayed in the Navy, you know, they're in over 20 years now, that's becoming more of a priority, which is really really great to hear. Um, so it isn't such a crazy jump, uh, like I experienced, but I think the, the biggest shift for me was like, as Junior enlisted, I had the questions, you know, and I always had someone that I know that I could go to that would have an answer for a question, or at least know where to find the answer, you know, or who to talk to. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and the instant that, you know, in the Navy you pin your anchors on your lapel. you just became that guy, or whether you're ready for it or not, you know?

Matt [00:06:31]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:06:33]:

And that, and that was the biggest thing for me, uh, because junior enlisted, you know, your questions are mostly technical or the problems that you have to solve are mostly technical. And then you, you step in, you know, as a chief, senior enlisted, the problems grow in scope. And now you have, obviously you're the technical expert in your division, uh, but you're also the people expert. you know, in your division. And that was the biggest jump for me. It's like, you know, technical problems, they can get pretty complex, but they pale in comparison to the complexity of some of the, you know, human problems that leaders have to face on a daily basis. So, I think that was the biggest surprise for me.

Matt [00:07:16]:

That's interesting that you say that because it's one of the things that I often reflect on from my time in the military. about how in the military, there kind of is, I suppose, but there's not really like an HR department. It's like the leadership is the HR department.

Rich Phipps [00:07:30]:

Exactly. Exactly.

Matt [00:07:32]:

And so just, there's a lot of things that often maybe your average technical leader kind of just like pushes off to like, oh, those people will figure it out. And it's like, no, like if there's a pay issue, it's like your troops are going to come to you and be like, hey boss, I have a pay issue. Can you help me solve it? You gotta help 'em solve it. Yeah. And you can't just be like, go talk to payroll.

Rich Phipps [00:07:54]:

Exactly.

Matt [00:07:56]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:07:57]:

Yeah. Or, or like, hey, I'm, I'm having, um, some difficulties at home or, or something, you know? And those are, those are, you know, junior enlisted, that's like kind of like a taboo thing. Like, you know, it's none of my business, you know? But as soon as you hit E-7, boom, that is 100% your business and something that you have to deal with. Like you said, no HR department, no one else to deflect those questions towards. So yeah, that was the biggest surprise for me, and it was a very steep learning curve.

Matt [00:08:23]:

Yeah. How did that experience go follow you when you left the military and you went to SpaceX? What was that transition like? Because I think, I believe like for a while you became an individual contributor again, you were a technician, but like how did, what was that transition like?

Rich Phipps [00:08:42]:

Yeah, so the transition from you know, senior enlisted leader to basically entry-level, you know, position at SpaceX, uh, uh, that was, it was a lot different. Um, so you go from being in a place and, and, you know, this is, this is after 12 years of being in, in the Navy at this point.

Matt [00:09:01]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:09:01]:

Like, I, that is all in my professional career. That's all that I know. That's the only experience I've ever had. Um, and You go from, from knowing just about everything that you can know about your craft after having been, you know, in that long, uh, to embarking on this new adventure where, uh, and this was funny when I, when I left, uh, SpaceX, um, you know, of course everyone's like, speech, speech, speech, you know, and, and I actually talked about this transition and I said, when I showed up, I thought, you know, frankly, I was like, I'm hot shit. You know?

Matt [00:09:37]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:09:37]:

I think coming outta the Navy, it's like, hey, I'm senior enlisted, you know, I, I made rank super young, like relatively intelligently. So people told me, you know, I, I'll figure it out. This, this is gonna be an easy gig, whatever. And I was immediately humbled, you know?

Matt [00:09:52]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:09:52]:

Going, going from senior enlisted leader to individual contributor again in an area where, like, I did have some professional knowledge, right? Uh, my job in the Navy, my rate was an electrician's mate. So my, you know, my function on the ship was to operate the electrical distribution systems.

Matt [00:10:10]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:10:10]:

Um, the reactor turned some steam turbines, steam turbines made electricity, and I pumped electricity around the ship. And at SpaceX, I was a data and control systems technician. So I had all of the basic electrical theory and all that knowledge and, and the experience to back up that. But as that applies to a Falcon 9, you know, at the time, or a Dragon capsule at the time. I was on the Dragon team.

Matt [00:10:35]:

That's when I started.

Rich Phipps [00:10:36]:

Uh, I knew nothing.

Matt [00:10:37]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:10:37]:

I knew nothing about, you know, the, the data acquisition systems, the specific sensors, and all the things that we were gonna use. So, I was humbled immediately and, and basically had to start over. But what I did bring, uh, was my leadership experience. Um, and I think it's an, an important thing to know, and this isn't new, and, and you'll hear a lot of people say this, uh, especially in leadership, is like, You know, leadership doesn't come from a title or a position, right? You know, leadership is, is something that can emerge, you know, based on, you know, characteristics or traits or whatever. Um, and in my case, you know, it was just experience. Uh, so yeah, I didn't have the authority to lead folks, uh, but I had, you know, the skill and the ability to. Um, and that's kind of what started paving the way for me, uh, to, to move up quickly through, the SpaceX ranks, if you will, as well.

Matt [00:11:31]:

Yeah, I definitely, in my book that just came out, I have a brief discussion about this whole dichotomy between management and leadership because people talk about that a lot. And honestly, to me, I think you can define it a million different ways, but to me, the biggest difference is just that leadership is something that you do and management is a position you hold. And so you you're put into a managerial position, whatever level that is, but then you can, but leading is something separate where you can do it with or without that position. You should always be doing it with that position, hopefully. But yeah, I think you're right. It's not a leadership itself has nothing to do with position.

Rich Phipps [00:12:13]:

Yeah. And both are important. A lot of people like say, yeah, like management is over here and leadership is over here and separately and on their own, like, I don't think you, you may realize the success that you want to realize, but you, you have to use them both in conjunction in order to get there.

Matt [00:12:29]:

Yep.

Rich Phipps [00:12:30]:

Um, which reminds me another thing, uh, you know, military, you know, versus SpaceX and kind of some of the things I brought over, like you mentioned before, uh, that, you know, dichotomy of responsibilities. And, and in the military, you have officer, you have enlisted, um, you know, and in the, civilian world, at least at SpaceX, you have, you know, engineer versus technician. And one thing that I brought with me from the Navy was that mindset of enlisted would be like the technician, you know, and the officers would be like engineers. And unfortunately in the military, well, not unfortunately in the military, but it just doesn't translate very well that You know, in, in the Navy or in the military in general, like your, your very lowest ranking officer still technically outranks your highest ranking enlisted person.

Matt [00:13:22]:

Highest enlisted person. Yes. Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:13:24]:

Like brand new fresh O-1, uh, outta college, you know, outranks the, the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy that's been in for 47 years.

Matt [00:13:33]:

You know, it's very strange.

Rich Phipps [00:13:35]:

Of course, in, in practice it doesn't really work that way. Like we all know our roles. stuff, but you still have to throw that salute up, you know? And, you know, I brought that with me to SpaceX. And during the time that I joined, like, the McGregor site, it was growing pretty rapidly. And, you know, leadership positions on various teams were becoming available. And what I saw was, you know, a lot of very smart, And very talented engineers, uh, getting promoted into these, you know, manager positions, leader, you know, leadership positions in general. Um, and not a whole lot on the, uh, on the technician side. Um, and so that created kind of a culture of, you know, technicians reporting to, you know, engineers similar to in the military where, you know, enlisted folks you know, were outranked by officers.

Rich Phipps [00:14:37]:

And, Yeah. I think that in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the problem, at least what I saw in my experience, was that, yeah, like I said, you have these brilliant engineers and they're super, super smart, but they lack the actual, like, leadership experience, you know? And that kind of goes back to, to my experience I was talking about before in the Navy where You know, I have, you know, all this technical knowledge and then now all of a sudden I'm responsible for like humans and all their complexity and their lives and, and, and stuff. Um, and a lot of, maybe not a lot, there, there were a couple of, of managers that struggled with that, you know?

Matt [00:15:15]:

Okay.

Rich Phipps [00:15:17]:

And at that point I kind of started rising up, you know, I became a lead technician a year or so after I, I joined SpaceX and then Almost immediately was promoted to a supervisor position where, you know, now I had some formal leadership responsibilities. And I think it was at that point where, uh, some of the, you know, my fellow technicians had been around for long enough, um, and we started working together to, to understand, you know, what were the weaknesses of the organization and what we could do, and, and from a leadership perspective.

Matt [00:15:49]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:15:49]:

And, uh, what we could do to make the, the, uh, organization work better together. And that relationship specifically between, you know, the engineering teams and the technician teams.

Matt [00:16:00]:

Yeah. How do you, I think, 'cause I think that's really important, 'cause especially when a hard tech company is growing, like there can be an early phase where it's just a bunch of engineers kind of chewing on CAD designs and the things. And then at some point you have to make it real. And very often that means bringing in a bunch of people with a different, with a different skillset. Yeah. How, what are some of the ways that you can effectively make sure it is a team that doesn't become divided into different camps?

Rich Phipps [00:16:31]:

Yeah. And, you know, the biggest thing, if you could slap like one word on it, it's like communication. You know, that's like the word. Communication is the solution to a lot of problems in organizations and leadership in general. But like, you know, engineers and technicians, right? we're peers, we work together, we're all here to do the thing, right? To accomplish the mission of the organization. But, you know, we have different skills and abilities and experiences, you know, and I think that engineer comes in, you know, fresh outta college, no, maybe no life experience outside of college and not a whole lot of experience working with You know, industry professionals that maybe don't have that degree or the academics, but they have been in industry, like working with their hands. I'm talking about the technicians and stuff. So you have like, you could have 10, 20 plus years of experience, like doing the thing, or you can have the, you know, the academia and the 4, 6, 8 years experience, like learning, you know, how to design the thing.

Rich Phipps [00:17:40]:

But, you know, each of those on their own, not very successful. You gotta use them in conjunction, you know?

Matt [00:17:45]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:17:46]:

And I think getting that point across both sides of the line, because technicians, you know, what's the biggest rubs? Like, engineer designs this thing and it's like, it's impossible to build. It's impossible to do maintenance on, or it's impossible, you know, there's always like something that's like, hey, if you, ever built one of these before, is, is so obvious. You would know that this design is terrible. You know, an engineer is like looking at a technician or, or, you know, like, what say you about my design? You've never designed anything. Like, you don't know the crazy amount of physics or the crazy amount of, you know, math and, you know, engineering that has to go, that, that has gone into this design, you know? And you just get like this butting of heads, you know?

Matt [00:18:32]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:18:33]:

And, and the only way to, to make that work is, I mean, you gotta get those 2 people in a room and you gotta get them communicating with each other. It's like, You know, from a technician perspective, you know, what is it about this design that's, that, that had you frustrated? Let's talk about it, you know? And from the engineer perspective, uh, you know, what can I do in order to make this better? You know, uh, and really getting all that feedback and, and making changes. And that's where that's the trust starts to get built. So then you make a small change here, the technician's like, oh, engineer listens to me, uh, and incorporated some of my feedback into the design. It works better. You know, the engineer gets that positive feedback from the technicians. Hey, you know, this system is great. It's easy to work on.

Rich Phipps [00:19:15]:

It's easy to build. Let's do more of this. This makes us faster and more efficient. Uh, and then it's just those smaller wins start to stack up, and then eventually, it takes time, but eventually you have a team that where the engineer is like, hey, I'm thinking about this technician. Let's get in way earlier in this design process.

Matt [00:19:32]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:19:33]:

Uh, and gimme your feedback, you know, and gimme your ideas, and let's just work together from the start on these things. And then that's when it happens, you know, and that productivity and efficiency explodes. Yeah.

Matt [00:19:47]:

Yeah. You mentioned, so you mentioned communication, you mentioned trust, like, yeah. What are some of the other things that you think are really essential to leading in these like really dynamic environments? Because like you said, like sometimes day of, you know, something blew up, go figure it out. So how do you successfully lead in an environment that's changing that quickly?

Rich Phipps [00:20:08]:

You have to, you have to minimize the distractions. Um, and that's really easy to say, but it's really hard to do. And, and it's not like, you know, uh, like a one-step process. Okay, what are we gonna do today? We're gonna minimize distractions.

Matt [00:20:25]:

All right.

Rich Phipps [00:20:25]:

What does that look like?

Matt [00:20:27]:

Put it on the wall. No distractions. We're done.

Rich Phipps [00:20:30]:

So, you know, I spent the last 6 years, uh, that I was at SpaceX, you know, in a manager role over a few different teams actually, and, uh, actually like merging some teams together to create even more, you know, bigger, more capable teams and stuff. And, and, you know, when it comes to minimizing distractions, I think the most important thing is, is you need to figure out what the distractions are first, you know? Um, and that's all about communicating.

Matt [00:20:59]:

What's an example? When you say distractions, what do you mean?

Rich Phipps [00:21:01]:

Okay. I think this is the best example I can give is, and it's kind of a big one, but like career progression.

Matt [00:21:10]:

Okay.

Rich Phipps [00:21:12]:

Yeah, it's a big one, but I think that in my 6 years as a manager, this is probably the biggest detractor from maximizing the efficiency of the team is like, I'm a technician and I come in, like I have the tactical things like, okay, today, this is what we're doing today. I need to like physically Build this thing today. It's pretty straightforward, you know, but in the back of your mind, it's like, you know, what, what does my career look like a year from now? What does my career look like 5 years from now? Like, what's my path to like moving up? You know, if that's my desire to, to, to move up within an organization or maybe move laterally and, and get into this other area of the organization, like, what are my avenues? You know, or am I just, I'm gonna come to work and every day I'm gonna build the thing.

Matt [00:22:02]:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Phipps [00:22:03]:

You know, uh, when I first started at, at SpaceX, I think one of the biggest questions, 'cause that was a, a question I had, you know, like I said, I came from senior enlisted in the Navy. I came in, you know, at an entry-level position. Like, of course I want to get back into leadership. That's what I'm passionate about. What is my path there? You know, and, and, you know, I asked my, my lead and my supervisor at the time, and there really wasn't a path charted out for career progression in any like meaningful way. Other than like, hey, if you're just really good at your job and you've been around for long enough, like, you know, maybe something will happen.

Matt [00:22:37]:

I'm really interested in the way you are framing this because I feel like especially over the last few years, there's been so much of a push of putting careers in the hands of the employees. Like, we're gonna make you, like, you chart your course, come up with your project that you're gonna, Get this skill on so you can apply to this role. And that's a lot of mental energy that you're now putting on that employee versus what I'm hearing you say is just like, if no, if you're a manager and you can at least have those conversations and flesh that out in one-on-ones or something, now that person— isn't spending all of their day-to-day time thinking about it. Is that right?

Rich Phipps [00:23:29]:

Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm driving towards. That takes up so much mental space to tell an entry-level technician or whatever, like, hey, if you want to move up, it's in your hands and you need to figure that out. That's terrible. It's a terrible thing to do. And what we did is I sat down, I was a supervisor at the time, so I sat down with All of my peers, uh, in McGregor and even some of our managers, you know, our, our next level, uh, supervisors at the time, we were like, hey, we, we need to really start thinking about how to chart out career paths for like, you know, all these different, uh, you know, 'cause in McGregor there are hundreds of different careers that actually happen there. They're not, it's not just group of engineer, group of technicians.

Matt [00:24:14]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:24:14]:

It's like this wide array of skill and experience, you know? Um, so we need to take a look at, like, you know, what are our expectations as supervisors and managers? Like, like, what skills are important? You know, aspirationally, like, what we need to be looking at in the future, like, what skills are we going to need in the future? And how do we bridge that gap? You know, if, if, if there is that gap that's there in terms of the skill that we have on hand right now, um, and how do we chart out a career path that is more than just like a couple of months. Like, I checked off the 5 things you told me to do. Like, you know, do I get a promotion? You know, that type of thing.

Matt [00:24:56]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:24:56]:

So, I sat down with, you know, my peers and managers, and we started talking about what are all the core responsibilities that we want. And this is for technicians.

Matt [00:25:07]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:25:08]:

The engineering expectations are a little bit different. And over, it took us several months, but over a period of several months, we finally had like an actual career path with, you know, discrete levels of growth between, you know, each level of technician, you know, and at SpaceX we had the 5 levels of technicians from apprentice to like a senior level technician. Like, What things that you need to be able to demonstrate, like what experience you need to have and all those things. But we also brought in the technicians, and we, so we went one step below. We went to the lead technicians. You know, these are the guys, boots on the ground, like doing the thing every single day. And we said like, hey, this is the list that we came up with. Like, what do you guys think about this? And there are a lot of things where they were like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Rich Phipps [00:26:02]:

we don't do these things anymore, you know? And so, we were like, make suggestions and we can make changes. So, we iterated that based on the input of the technicians. And then, on the other end of it, we had these, you know, very well thought out technician career growth paths for them. And so, that was like one less thing, and it's a big thing.

Matt [00:26:22]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:26:22]:

That technicians needed to worry about and take up that mental and emotional space in their minds so they could get focused on the things that they need to be doing on a daily basis. That was a huge tangent, but I think that that would be considered, in my mind, a very big distraction.

Matt [00:26:39]:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, I, because I'm a big believer is that, you know, a leader needs to be doing 3 things. They need to get people to work together, get them working on the right things, and improve their work over time. And getting to work on the right things is all about figuring out what's the most, it's that old saying, The most important thing is keeping the most important thing the most important thing.

Rich Phipps [00:27:01]:

Yeah, exactly.

Matt [00:27:02]:

And asking, just continually asking yourself, like, how do I get my, how can I help my team move faster? How can I eliminate distractions? How can I give them the resources that they need? It is just a critical element of leadership. Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:27:17]:

And I think that was the one that we wanted to tackle first because in, you know, high reliability organizations or organizations that move quickly like SpaceX, like, At the very start of it, like you're hiring folks that are the hard chargers that, you know, they're, they're the guys that are gonna just go, go, go, go, do, do, do, do.

Matt [00:27:36]:

Right.

Rich Phipps [00:27:37]:

And that's a double-edged sword because, you know, they're gonna put in the work and they're gonna go 100 miles an hour in whatever direction they go in, unless like leadership, like focuses that energy in a direction that's meaningful for the organization.

Matt [00:27:51]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:27:51]:

You know, so that, I think that was the most meat on the bone that we could find with like increasing the efficiency and effectiveness of the organization was let's focus all this energy in a direction that makes sense. And that was one way to do it.

Matt [00:28:07]:

Just a quick interjection. I wanted to remind you that I run a company called Built, where we train the next generation of hard tech leaders how to build teams capable of solving the world's hardest problems. If you are an aspiring technical leader, an existing leader, or responsible for training leaders in your organization, please check out builtleaders.com to see if we can support you and your team. I think that, I mean, yeah, it was kind of a sidebar, but I think it's, yeah, just such a, such a critical element of being an effective leader and giving people that, that's the space that they need and the focus that they need. Before, before we started talking, I want to make sure this, we brought this up because we started talking, you mentioned a definition of leadership that you had kept with you that had been really important to you.

Rich Phipps [00:28:51]:

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Matt [00:28:52]:

Has that come up yet? Or I, 'cause I'd love to hear it 'cause I don't think it has.

Rich Phipps [00:28:55]:

Yeah. No, I, you get me going, Matt, and I'll just go 100 miles an hour like I was just saying down whatever path we go down. Yeah. No, but the, yeah, the definition of leadership that, or of a leader that has really stuck with me throughout my career is this, and it's, It sounds a little textbooky, so bear with me there, but there are some keywords in there that I like to pull out. So, the definition is a leader is someone who selects, equips, trains, and influences one or more persons who have diverse gifts, abilities, and skills, and aligns them to the organization's objectives, inspiring them to willingly and enthusiastically expend emotional and physical energy in a concerted effort to achieve the mission. Super long definition.

Matt [00:29:43]:

Super long, but I love it. There's a lot in there.

Rich Phipps [00:29:46]:

There is. There's so much to unpack in there, and that's why, like, I love it so much. So the 5 keywords in there were influences was the first one. The second one was diverse, talking about gifts and abilities, skills, that thing. Alignment, super important. We were kind of just talking about that. Uh, inspiration. That one's important.

Rich Phipps [00:30:09]:

That gets way deep into motivation, which is important.

Matt [00:30:12]:

Yep.

Rich Phipps [00:30:13]:

And then, uh, a concerted effort. Um, I think those are the 5 words, uh, that basically like shape what's important to me, uh, as a leader. And so, like the first one we talked about influence. So, you know, what, from a leadership perspective, like what is influence? Uh, and, and to me, like, that is your currency as a leader. That is the power that you have as a leader is influence. Uh, without influence, you cannot lead.

Matt [00:30:45]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:30:45]:

It is not possible. And there's a lot of different ways that you can influence leader, and that can be the dividing line or influence folks. And that can be the dividing line between like good leaders and bad leaders.

Matt [00:30:55]:

Yep.

Rich Phipps [00:30:55]:

Uh, but Yeah, to influence is to have an impact on behaviors and attitudes and outcomes and things like that. And obviously a leader wants people to follow them because like, you know, they're aligned and not necessarily like, I'm just a leader, like telling you what to do. And that kind of goes back, we were talking about the military. It's like, you know, whatever my collar device is kind of tells the world in military terms, like, I'm this, I outrank you, you have to do what I say. you know, that is a form of influence, but, you know, that does not translate, especially over in SpaceX.

Matt [00:31:31]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:31:32]:

Um, the, the second one was, uh, diverse, and that's talking about like the abilities and the skills and the experience of the people on your team. And one of the most important things as a leader is to know your team, like really know them. Um, if you talk to anyone that, that's ever worked with me at SpaceX, you know, the one thing that, that I always say is, uh, my expectations for the people that, that are on my team and work with me is that we create meaningful relationships with each other, um, and with the teams that we work closely with. Uh, and there's no limit to how far that can expand, you know.

Matt [00:32:12]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:32:12]:

Always be creating those relationships, but focusing on like being a leader of a team, You really need to understand, like, as many, like, facets of an individual as you can to really understand, like, one, how to motivate them. Uh, you know, what, what, what are their motivations in general? Like, what gets them out of bed in the morning? Uh, and also from a personal perspective, like, what are the things that they're dealing with, you know, as human beings? I always say, like, take care of the human as best as you can. And like, the mission's gonna happen. That's like a byproduct of taking care of humans as humans. You're going to get the most that they have to offer, or you're going to get the most out of them that they have to offer if you take care of them as human beings.

Matt [00:32:59]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:33:00]:

So yeah, back to diversity. So you really have to know your teams to understand like what their skills and abilities are and the experience that they have. It's very, very important. The next one talks about You know, alignment. We were talking about that a little bit before. That's just as a leader, you know, having a clear understanding of what the purpose of your team is. Like, what function do you play in the overall organization? And making absolutely sure that everyone on your team understands that as well. You know, tying their individual effort and their impact on a daily basis to the mission at large.

Rich Phipps [00:33:35]:

You know, keep them connected. In the inspiration piece, uh, like I said before, that was talking about how your team is motivated. You can motivate them by outranking them and them having to do what, what you say to do.

Matt [00:33:51]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:33:51]:

Yeah. It's like, it's like, yeah, for fear of reprimand, right? I'm gonna do what you tell me to do because if I don't, I'm gonna get in trouble. And that motivates me to do what you're telling me to do. And that's, that works to a point, you know, but you're never gonna get any more than that, right?

Matt [00:34:03]:

Yeah. It's It's the line from The Office, right? The movie, or Office Space. It's from Office Space where you say, you know, Bob, that's gonna motivate someone to do just enough to not get fired.

Rich Phipps [00:34:16]:

Exactly. 100%. Um, but, you know, as a leader, you really wanna tap into that intrinsic motivation, and that kind of goes back to really knowing your team and what makes them tick. Um, And then the last one was, was the concerted effort. Uh, and, you know, that's about having a, you know, a shared purpose. You have all these individuals on your team. Um, you want to get them all pointed in the same direction, which is alignment, but you also like want them to like prop each other up too, you know?

Matt [00:34:51]:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Phipps [00:34:52]:

Um, and I think that's super important and that goes back to the creating relationships. So, yeah. As a manager, I expect my supervisors to create relationships with their individuals on their team, but I also have an expectation for each individual contributor on the team to like create relationships with each other, understand what their, you know, their complementary strengths and weaknesses are. It's like, you know, I'm not really great at this, but Joe is awesome at this. So we're going to bring Joe in or whatever, you know, it's a simple example. But then you, you get this crazy, like, amount of collaboration and communication that comes out of that. And then that all turns into, like, this force multiplication, you know, that on the surface, maybe, maybe you don't see it, but, like, when you get everyone working together, you know, you get, uh, the, oh, what's the word I'm looking for? I had it, but I lost it. It's that, it's that buzzword that everyone either, like, really loves or really hates.

Rich Phipps [00:35:46]:

Synergy.

Matt [00:35:48]:

Yes, synergy.

Rich Phipps [00:35:48]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go.

Matt [00:35:49]:

There's a consultant word for you.

Rich Phipps [00:35:50]:

It is. Okay.

Matt [00:35:51]:

Yeah.

Rich Phipps [00:35:52]:

But yeah, those were the, you know, the 5 key words that come out of that definition. And it's like all of that working together can really turn a team around, you know?

Matt [00:36:04]:

Yeah. This has been a fantastic discussion, Rich. Thank you so much for, I mean, for your service, for talking us through kind of what you learned in your service, for your time at SpaceX. And I can only imagine how many early mornings, late nights that you went through while you were there, but which is exactly why this kind of stuff is so important. I think leadership can often take a side seat in good times when things are going well. When things are going well, maybe you can get away with not great leadership or not a lot of trust, but it's when things go wrong where it's like, oh, if you don't have those things, It's just, it's just not. So it's been, it's been really great hearing from you. I'm sure we'll reach out again.

Rich Phipps [00:36:50]:

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, thanks for having me on, Matt. It's been a pleasure. Let's talk again soon.